Suppose that the local Methodist fellowship agreed to merge with our congregation- they agree to work under the leadership of our elders and meet and worship at our facilities- They have but one request- every other worship be instrumental.
Are you for or against such a merger?
Thursday, November 03, 2005
?Hypothetical Question?
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13 comments:
I think the issue of how we worship God needs to be addressed according to scripture and how God requests that we worship Him. I don't believe there is room for "giving in" to other forms of formal worship when we meet together. God is the only one capable of setting the standard of how to worship Him, not human beings.
I would be a bit concerned that the beliefs of the other congregation would begin to change our congregations beliefs over a period of time and cause us to doubt what is true.
All worship should be biblically based and God ordained. Not what makes us "feel" closer to God. God knows what is best for humans....we just think WE do. ;)
Jennifer
"All worship should be biblically based and God ordained" - I agree (but what about the variance in our understanding of the specifics) If two honest Christians disagree about a particular issue must they fellowship separately. In other words, what about the value of unity. Jesus prayed for unity. Our movement, in its inception, was a unity movement.
I believe fellowship with other believers is vital. It just seems like if we all believed the same thing was true, we would already be worshiping together. Typically, a person will try out many different congregations of varying denominations to find what "suits them". I have always wondered what it is exactly that makes certain people "stop by" Sunshine and then keep on searching for "their" church. I really want nothing more than for all people to be saved and ready for Heaven, all the while worshiping together all at one time. Can you just imagine the sound of the world singing to God would sound like?! I often love to sit in a room where a football game is on and just close my eyes and listen to the sound of hundreds of people cheering. It makes me think about how it might sound when Jesus comes back!
I would love to think that Methodists, Catholics, Baptists, etc. could all worship together as one but everyone is too stuck in their traditional ways and are not interested in changing. Everyone honestly believes they are the right ones.
I'm all for "joining forces" with others if it could possibly work.
There is something incredibly important that we all can't seem to agree on and that is, what's involved in order to get to Heaven. It would appear that music and baptism are really big issues amoung the church as a whole. For the most part, I think everyone agrees that Jesus saves but from that point we all seem to go our separate ways according to what the preacher teaches or what we've always been told growing up, or whatever. We need to read the Bible for ourselves and believe what it says and not believe what people say. Good advice is to never fully trust your feelings, or what someone tells you. Read it for yourself and make the best judgement possible with tons and tons of prayer.
I have struggled in the past about whether baptism was absolutely necessary and I am currently struggling to see that their is anything wrong with using instruments for worship. Occasionally, I still struggle with the baptism issue. Some areas of the bible say to believe and be baptized and you will be saved, while other areas say all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. I have come to the conclusion that I personally don't want to take any chances and leave something out. Plus, we are suppose to copy Jesus to the best of our ability and by golly, He was baptized and told the apostles to preach the gospel and baptize them. So, I tend to go with the belief of baptism is necessary.....but then, how necessary is it really, when it comes to salvation? Are we not saved until we come out of the water?
I really could scream in frustration at times, you know?....hahaha.
I truly just want to do the right thing in the eyes of God. This really is my heart's desire.
Thank you, Gabe. That's what I want to say too. It just takes me many more words to do it...haha.
I appreciate the comments to this post, I hope to stimulate thought not to offend the reader's sensibilities...
"I agree that unity is an extremely important virtue for a congregation to have, but not at the expense of going away from the the truth."--- I agree with you. However, I would be for such a merger even if it meant complying with instrumental services. The difference in our thinking lies in the importance each gives to practice of noninstrumental worship. I value it and hope we never deviate from it, but I don't think it's essential to the integrity of our fellowship. My comfort with it is not as important as the possibility of unity (given the confines of our hypothetical question). Of course, we could complicate the scenario by factoring in the possibility that many of Sunshine's people would leave if such a merger took place. But, let's keep it simple.
The university metaphor of ...majoring in majors and minoring in minors... is a nice idea except we have great difficuly in arriving at a consensus about what is major and what is minor.
You make a good point- I still feel a strong need to expand my thinking in many aspects, but I'll grant you this: better to err being a little too conservative, than to err being too liberal.
I'm still for the merger!
I would have very serious doubts that the members of the Methodist congregation would understand the significance of what they were committing themselves to.
I grew up attending a large Methodist church and felt that I was a "Christian" even though I was not baptised. I attended services regularly and was an active participant in the youth group there. I went thru the catechisim classes and was considered a member in good standing.
I sort of feel like I'm paraphrasing Paul's testimony of being a good Jew here :)
Anyway, I started attending Sunshine regularly when I met Patsy and didn't return to the Methodist church for nearly 5 years. For all that time, I still felt that the Methodist church was "my" church and longed to return to their services. Finally, one Sunday, I convinced Patsy to return with me to "my" church.
What a surprise! I felt very uneasy with the pomp and circumstance, the formalized rituals, etc. There was no meat to the sermon. I missed communion. The organ was too loud. The people hardly sang at all. I realized then that the Methodist church was no longer "my" church, Sunshine was. Not long after that I was baptised and became a member of Sunshine. I have never desired to go back to the sterile environment of my youth.
So when I contemplate the possibility of an influx of a large number of folks from the Methodist church, I believe that Sunshine would be dramatically changed for the worse were that to happen. The difference in music styles is insignificant compared to the other differences between the two religious philosophys. I don't think it would work out.
I'm sorry it has taken me so long to respond. This post has scrolled down so far I'd nearly given up on it for new comments. The matter of causing strife and initiating foolish arguments (ref. Proverbs & II Timothy) is a serious matter, and I take it as such. In posting a hypothetical question, I do not intend to violate such principles. I will readily admit that I am responsible for the consequences of my actions despite my intentions. Meaning, good intentions do not excuse a bad result. Also, I should clarify, I'm not advocating instrumental music or any other change in our worship practices. I wrote the post hoping to stimulate a lively discussion. I do not feel the question is futile because it a microcosm of a larger belief system that disallows our participation with the rest of evangelical Christendom. To wrestle with the issues of music is to simultaneously wrestle with the larger issues of biblical interpreation. It is a frustration of mine that we within the brotherhood are resistance to acknowledge the hermeneutical presuppostions and principles that guide our reading of the plain teachings of Scripture. Alexander Campbell did not shy away from hermeneutics, in fact he authored the tripartite hermeneutic that we guides us to this day. (1. Direct command, 2. Approved example, 3. Necessary inference) I do not want to be guilty of being a divisive force in our Sunshine family. I am deeply convicted regarding the value of unity. Ironically, it is that value that keeps driving me to deepen my own understanding of my religious heritage. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another- that is my intended aim of a hypothetical question.
Well said, Jason. Even though many of the words you used were new to me...hahaha. Like I always say "That's Jason."
I personally have greatly enjoyed the stretching of my mind this post has created. It is important to me to know why I believe what I believe and not just follow along with what everyone else is doing and believing. I am my own person and I have a mind of my own. There is a time to follow and a time to lead. Both are difficult to do well. I think discussions like this CAN cause arguments, BUT....I also believe that it is healthy to question why we do what we do (as I said earlier). We NEED to question ourselves and NEVER question God's word.
As far as the issue of spending our time teaching the lost....That is very important. I also feel that this dicussion is mostlikely being viewed by lost people as we post our comments on this blog. This blog is a teaching tool that Sunshine has been blessed with. There are many people "out there on the world wide web" who are dealing with the very issues we have been discussing in this blog. They are all searching for answers. How we respond to one another as Christian brothers and sisters concerning this subject can become the key to opening up the mind of someone who is looking for the truth. This in turn can cause them to seek out more information about God and ultimately their salvation. The issue of what we are suppose to do with people from different denominations who profess to know Jesus is crucial.
I don't think we are wasting time here.
Just when you think a post is dead, it springs back to life. Jennifer, I appreciate your sharing your feelings about the discussion. You and I tend to share from a little different orientation- I hope that it has been and always will be for each others benefit and overall edification. It is interesting to consider who all might be reading this blog. Maybe Al's map will gain us some insight. I write thinking only of folks from Sunshine. I can't imagine that there would be many people outside of our fellowship that would find this interesting reading. As matter of fact, I think its the minority of folks within Sunshine that find this interesting. I could be wrong (it has happened before).
I appreciate your comments, Taylor. Of course, I automatically like any post or comment that utilizes the word "paradigm". My favorite word is "epiphany". If I ever experience one- I'll post about it.
"Are we merged already?" There is one church and it is God and He alone that adds us to that church. Then the burden is upon us to acknowledge that oneness and recognize its parameters. So I note, we have typically used doctrinal criteria to define those parameters (correct doctrine-in, incorrect doctrine-out). You can't really argue with that logic- I mean who is going to seriously suggest that bad doctrine is to be accepted. But there's a pressure from the opposite direction that bothers me. Jesus said "..by their fruits you will know them." And wasn't the unforgiveable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, when Pharisees attributed a miracle of Jesus' to Satan-the work of God attributed to Satan. It makes me a bit nervous about the ramifications of my conclusions. Specifically, if I define a child of God outside the parameters of the one church, could I be treading on dangerous ground?
Please redirect future comments for this post to the post above titled, "Hypothetical Question-cont" Thanks
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